| Date: | July 10, 2007 / year-entry #249 |
| Tags: | non-computer |
| Orig Link: | https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20070710-01/?p=26073 |
| Comments: | 41 |
| Summary: | Controversial new German law requires non-EU members to be able to speak German before they can move to the country to join their spouse. |
Controversial new German law requires non-EU members to be able to speak German before they can move to the country to join their spouse. |
Comments (41)
Comments are closed. |
In principle it should leave fewer hGbs for you: the law seemed to be about keeping Turkish men from fetching over their mail-order brides.
The same thing is going to happen in France with new president Sarkozy.
This seems like a sensible idea to me. Although I imagine it is easier to learn a new language in situ, it does mean that people moving over to be with their partners are better equipped to deal with life in Germany.
I guess a minimal "German speaking" test on application, and mandatory lessons on arrival would be a simple enough thing to organize. Although if they rejected people who couldn’t speak minimally on application that would suck.
Steve,
How many languages do you speak?
There are already thousands of people without even the most basic knowledge of German living in the country. For example, lots of Turkish housewifes still need people to translate if they have to go see a doctor – after living in Germany for 20 years! So this law may make some sense if it had been introduced 30 years ago.
I speak one language, English, and I can "get by" in German, French, and Spanish.
However if I were going to get married to a person in a foreign country and go live there one of the first things I’d be doing is getting language lessons!
Sure if my potential partner spoke English and we’d met whilst she was in the UK I wouldn’t need it for her – but I’d need to speak the local language to speak to shopkeepers, etc. Isn’t that obvious?
In fact, that leaves more hot German babes for me!
Thanks, law-passers!
"How many languages do you speak?" is the wrong quesiton.
A more reasonable question would be something like:
"How many countries whose language you didn’t speak have you moved to?"
"people moving over … are better equipped to deal with life in Germany."
Why discriminate against non-EU members?
Some laws might sound like a good idea, but might do more damage than good. I think this is one such case.
So what kind of firestorm would happen in American politics if the same requirements were proposed?
I imagine European Union legislation prevents them from imposing similar tests on other EU members – there’s a legally guaranteed right to live and work in any EU country for any EU citizen.
And, unfortunately, it’s not just the immigrant’s problem – what happens for example if there’s a domestic disturbance, the police come round, and either have to have translators or can’t figure out what’s going on? What happens if the immigrant can’t find a job thanks to not being able to speak the language and is forced to live on benefits?
[2. Why discriminate against non-EU members?]
EU members probably have special rights when it comes to moving within the EU, just like I can pick up and move one state over in the US without any government intervention but I need to apply for a visa or something similar to move to Canada. A quick check on Wikipedia states migration is free between EU member states.
[So what kind of firestorm would happen in American politics if the same requirements were proposed?]
The United States doesn’t have a national language and I would imagine it has a much larger more diverse immigrant population than Germany.
Just as Cody pointed out, the free movements of citizens is one of the pillars of the EU – hallowed as one of the most important principles.
I am currently enjoying this fact myself – I am Swedish, but have been working in Germany for the last two years now. I only need to go register residence, and have the people in charge print out a letter of admission for me, and that’s all the bureaucracy needed to take up residence.
Ten years ago, the same thing would have involved applying for, and getting, a work permit which may or may not be reasonably easy.
He, funny, I’m born german, still living in Germany and reading this news first here, in a american feed.
Maybe I should add a few non-technical feeds to my feedreader ;)
"How many countries whose language you didn’t speak have you moved to?"
is a presumptuous question. It presumes one country has only one language. When I was brought up in India, I had trouble picking up just 3 of the 15 or so official languages.
[quote]
is a presumptuous question. It presumes one country has only one language. When I was brought up in India, I had trouble picking up just 3 of the 15 or so official languages.
[/quote]
Then learning even 1 of the 15 official language is fine as long as that’s the daily language be used at the place you live.
Just like for some (in fact, a lot of…) province in China, it’s alright for people living there not be able to speak Mandarin, because the most common language be used there are dialects and almost noone use Mandarin as their daily language there.
It makes sense to me.
Lets put it this way. You are Martian and you move to Germany. You want to preserve your language. That is fine with me. But if you want to live in Germany, you have to learn to speak German. You have problem with that? Then don’t move in.
Why do people expect others to tolerate them when they aren’t showing tolerance themselves by adjusting to the new environment?
I keep being puzzled with in my opinion undeserved special treatment of minorities.
In most cases it was their choice to come and live in another country. Common sense requires that they try to fit in the best they can. Yet the law allows them to completely ignore all the values of the country they have moved into.
That smells like a long-term problem to me. If the minority ever becomes majority, which is not so impossible as some of you may think, they will change the laws. Remember – they didn’t respect your values when they were minority, so why should they respect them now when they are majority?
So, in the end you will have to respect their values or leave if you don’t like it. You will most likely lose your identity and you can even lose your territory.
It is exactly what is happening in Kosovo right now. Illegal Albanian immigrants were minority at first, now they are majority. They don’t speak Serbian and they want independence (to later join with Albania) and we will most likely lose a part of our land to them.
@Igor: I totally agree.
I don’t mind foreigners coming to my country, but if they plan to live here, they better speak the language. I learnt to speak English when I moved to an English speaking country at the age of 6. I also speak German (but I’m not planning to move there), and Dutch (because I am Dutch ;). My mom taught my brother and I English when we moved to said country, from a couple of textbooks. No way that cost 500 dollars a week.
And remember, you only need to be able to get around; the rest of the language can be picked up with little effort by simply speaking to the shopkeepers and so on.
In Australia, if you want to move here (that is, permanently not just temporarily) for work or whatever you need to pass an English exam. But if you move here to marry, you do not. But you *do* need to prove your marriage is legitimate, so that’s probably how they stop the mail-order brides over here.
@Igor: In principle you’re right. If someone moves to some other country I’d expect him to learn the/one local language. That’s a matter of tolerance as much as of practicality.
But: With especially the turkish immigrants in Germany the story is a whole lot more complicated.
In the 1960/70s (Western) Germany was in desperate need of work force. The brilliant idea was to lure thousands of families from Turkey over.
The deal back then was basically that they do the dirty work the Germans didn’t want to do and in return earn Good DeutschMark (TM) and are free to live their lifes as they see fit.
As long as those immigrants were sought-after labourers nobody minded that they concentrated with their kin. In Berlin for example, the quite famous borough "Kreuzberg" is mostly inhabitated by immigrants.
But now (ignoring the fact that most immigrants still do jobs the Germans don’t want to do) with unemployment and lower social standards, some politicians try to make a mark by demanding that everybody has to speak German in Germany (not only imported wifes).
While this is basically DOES make sense it’s in contradiction to the initial deal of "do our dirty work and do whatever you want".
On a more serious note,
When a couple living in Germany gets a divorce and they have children and one of them is non-German , he or she may be officially forbidden to speak to their kids in the other language (f.e. Polish). They may talk in German only.
Sad.
Przem: That would be a desperate measure of the court. I don’t know of such an official regulation of languages you are allowed to use in presence of your children. Nope, still not 1984 here.
Carsten: Of course they want it only NOW. Politics is shortsighted and that non-integrated minorities might cause a problem did not occur to anybody back then.
But now it does. What do you propose? Ignoring that cultural self-isolation does create problems and just going on with the program of multicultural whedonotknowwhere?
I certainly do not agree with every desperate measure. If the free german-language-course are not properly funded (as it they were not) you won’t convince me that it is a good idea to make them obligatory. But we can’t just propose that the idea is rubbish because we used to ignore the problems that arise with integration. Problems we see in Kreuzberg (and especially the schools of Kreuzberg).
Actually, German babes are not so hot… They’re a little bit overweight and too much feminists.
Hot babes are from Central and Eastern Europe – Czechia, Slovakia, Poland, Baltic States (Lithuania, Latvia), Russia etc.
Well, then, if you feel that way you could just try to pick up the "would be considered hot by Germans if they weren’t so skinny" group :P
I suppose it boils down to, everyone agrees people who intend to permanently live in a country should make an effort to learn the language and integrate
problem is, I can’t think of any way to legislate that that wouldn’t be a) too draconian, or b) useless
Really not new. Canada and the Netherlands have similar rules, and I think Denmark has them too.
"1. It they want to be not so well equipped, it their own problem"
No it’s not. Germany has to pay them unemployment benefits, training, medical expenses, etc etc.
Yury, they do pay a fair share of that themselves. Turks aren’t exempt from taxes (e.g. VAT) or social insurance contributions and they contribute to the GNP in no mean quantities. Turks thus do even pay for German benefit recipients.
PS: to clear up the matter a bit:
There won’t be more German babes for you. Usually the foreigners who arrive alone here are men and their family follows. The new regulations thus affect foreign women following their husbands.
Especially the turqish oranizsations in Germany are complaining about this (at the integration summits, that take place atm).
The law is absolutely vile. What it is saying is that the state has the right to decide who you marry. Worse than tribalism.
And those people who defend it would be up in arms if anything similar applied to them. Imagine they were working on an IT project in Saudi Arabia or as oil workers in the Niger Delta, went home and got married and were told their wife couldn’t join them until they had learned Arabic or Orubu or Hausa!
Carsten said: "While this is basically DOES make sense it’s in contradiction to the initial deal of "do our dirty work and do whatever you want"."
Yeah, that was the initial mistake the government has made. I am fully aware of that. However, those Turks could have as well been required to learn German over the course of their stay. Someone clearly didn’t want that to happen because he wrongly believed that not knowing German would be an impediment to those Turks and that it would limit their role in the society. That person completely ignored the fact that one day they could make society.
Stephen Jones said: "The law is absolutely vile. What it is saying is that the state has the right to decide who you marry. Worse than tribalism."
Stephen, recently a friend of mine told to me that his wife left him because he was "indifferent to the communication skills required to foster a healthy relationship".
Not knowing your spouse’s language is an obstacle in communication which can lead to misunderstandings, quarrels, and ultimately a divorce.
Besides, the law doesn’t forbid anyone to marry, it merely makes a reasonable requirement.
For example, you can’t drive a car without passing the driving test, right? And I don’t hear you complaining "that the state has the right to decide who can drive".
"The same thing is going to happen in France with new president Sarkozy."
Why would M. Sarkozy want non-EU members to be able to speak German before immigrating to France?
-Wang-Lo.
"The law is absolutely vile. What it is saying is that the state has the right to decide who you marry. Worse than tribalism."
I guess the law only force you to give your wife the right to be able to live her life without you.
without your beeing the only way she can talk to the rest of the world around her.
If you are so committed to marry someone and travel in another country ask you to learn some basic german doesn’t sound so vile..
Wouldn’t this be moot after Turkey joins the EU?
I guess the question is how likely that will happen.
Remember when I pointed out how One day, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free, might have to
OK. So one of you Americans gets settled down in Germany, and after some years you decide to marry your childhood sweetheart. You then find you can’t live with her because you have no job in the States and she can’t live in Germany because she doesn’t speak German.
Now you might say it’s easy to speak German so let’s change the country to Japan.
The measure is simply a racist attempt to keep out Turks, and stop Germans from marrying Thai girls and soiling the race.
If the US had applied this rule then many of you would never have been born.
And as for allowing the wife to lead a life of her own, come on! There are millions of people in Germany who speak Turkish, just as there are thousands of people in nearly every country in the world who speak German.
When you want to live with your wife in Germany, it would be no problem for both of you to learn a basic level (and more is not asked for!) of German.
And yes, there are many people speaking German in nearly ever country in the world. But they do also speak the tongue of their host-country.
And thats what this law is all about: In order to be able to integrate in the German society, you need to have a basic understanding of the language.
By the way: The US is asking the same, and is calling that TOEFL: "Test of English as a foreign language".
[OK. So one of you Americans gets settled down in Germany, and after some years you decide to marry your childhood sweetheart. You then find you can’t live with her because you have no job in the States and she can’t live in Germany because she doesn’t speak German.]
So she can take German lessons before the wedding or you can find a job in the US. Neither are insurmountable tasks.
[Now you might say it’s easy to speak German so let’s change the country to Japan.]
Japanese isn’t that bad either. And you could still find a job in the US.
[If the US had applied this rule then many of you would never have been born.]
If my great-grandfather can learn English after speaking Korean for 65 years your 25-year-old wife can learn German.
It’s not an unreasonable requirement for immigration by any means. A standardized language for a society reduces the costs of administering that society.
There will never be a de jure language requirement for immigration into the US (barring a constitutional amendment) because the US constitutionally cannot declare a national language (since that right is reserved for the states) and the states (who can declare official languages) have no jurisdiction over immigration. A de facto language requirement may form if immigration proceedures make it unwieldly to pass if you don’t speak English.
As far as I know, that was the idea back then (I don’t say that it was a good idea to do nothing to integrate the immigrants to the overall society, but hindsight is always 20/20). But dirty work is actually quite rare nowadays, in other words, it’s hard to earn a living if you don’t speak at least enough german to get along. And since our social system is struggling to keep working (unemployment is one of our biggest problems in this decade), the idea of forcing immigrants to learn some basic german could be defended as being necessary to make it more likely that they can earn their living themselfes.
But I would also argue that it’s important for our democracy that everyone is able to at least understand what our politicians say, write and do, and that would be difficult if one does not know much german at all.
Also, as "just passing by" pointed out, we’ve got many feminists here (actually, I consider that a good thing), but it’s hard to be emancipated if a woman doesn’t speak german, where her husband does, so I would also argument that it’s a good thing when women immigrating from the turkey etc. have to learn german. If they do, they more easily can compare themselfs to german women of the same age, and (hopefully) reach the same level of emancipation over time.
The only thing that I think is not fair is that the rule does only apply to non-EU immigrants. IMHO, the rule should apply to all immigrants.
Yes, but only if they can actually find work. So it’s in the interest of the german social systems if immigrants do find work, and if one does not speak the main language of the country, that’s hard.
No, the state does not make any limitations one the person you want to marry (as long as you are not biologically related, that would obviously be very unhealthy). Every person that is in the age most immigrants are should be able to learn a bit of german without too much trouble.
There may be millions of people, but not evenly distributed, so depending on where you live, there may be only a handful of families in close proximity. For example, in our village, there aren’t that many families of turkish origin.
It doesn’t really fit in here, but I can’t resist:
http://xkcd.com/c84.html
I wonder what happens if a German is married to a non-German (and non-EU) and both Germany and the other country implement such a law and neither of them speak each other’s language but instead use a 3rd language like English to communicate: Where are they going to live? Both have to move to another country just so that they can live together?! This law is just plain stupid and ignorant.
P.S. I’m German
P.P.S. I’m getting married to a non-EU citizen and we don’t intend to live in Germany, but she speaks German
Oh, and the US is not asking for a TOEFL or any language test if you want to get your spouse (or even fiance!) into the country to marry/live with them. They don’t care whether you can speak English or not, as long as you can communicate with your partner (in whatever language you prefer). The only exception where an English "test" is a requirement is when the foreign citizen applies for US citizenship. But your foreign spouse can still live with you permanently, even if he/she doesn’t speak a single word of English.
However, I absolutely appreciate it if people who want to live in another country learn (and use!) the language as good as possible. I find it unfriendly and ignorant if people don’t try to get used to customs and society in the country they want to live in.